Take a look at the website of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. It exists to honor the service of the Confederate “citizen soldier”: the organization reminds us that “the tenacity with which Confederate soldiers fought underscored their belief in the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.” Finally, “Membership in the Sons of Confederate Veterans is open to all male descendants of any veteran who served honorably in the Confederate armed forces.”
Here’s where things get tricky. It’s hard to disagree with the notion that one of the rights Confederate soldiers believed was guaranteed by the Constitution was the right to own slaves. After all, modern day defenders of the Confederacy continue to remind everyone that slavery was constitutional, so even they recognize that fact. But I assume that when the SCV framed this carefully-worded statement which speaks of “citizen soldiers,” that its members, who are devoted to historical accuracy, know that enslaved people were not citizens, and thus cannot be regarded as “citizen soldiers.”
Given that the SCV is devoted to historical accuracy, and that part of that quest is to understand things as they were understood at the time, one would anticipate that the SCV would be at the forefront of efforts to counter the narrative that enslaved blacks could in fact be considered soldiers. Confederate soldiers at the time did not share that definition: the debate over enlisting blacks in the Confederate armed forces reinforces that notion that white southerners did not equate the presence of enslaved blacks with the Confederate armies as a sign that they, too, were soldiers. Indeed, to equate their presence with a soldier’s service would essentially degrade the status of soldier (and thus dishonor the service and commitment of actual soldiers) by asserting that the status of soldier was really rather flexible, especially if people today, imposing their own values and concerns on the past historical record, basically redefined the meaning of soldier to include just about anyone. It’s bad enough to take a Yankee’s word for who is and who isn’t a soldier (recall that most of the testimony about black Confederates comes from Union observers), but to take away from Confederate soldiers the status they deserve because of their service because of a need to placate modern sensibilities does not honor their service.
In fact, it dishonors it.
However, the final sentence … that membership “is open to all male descendants of any veteran who served honorably in the Confederate armed forces” … opens the door a crack. I define veteran as someone who served as a soldier according to the status recognized at the time. That excludes enslaved blacks, who were not “citizens” and who did not enjoy the status of “soldier.” However, if we open up the term “veteran” to mean just whoever we happen to want to believe “served,” regardless of status, that we’ve rendered meaningless the status of veteran. That, I’d suggest, would be dishonorable and disgraceful.
So, if the Sons of Confederate Veterans really wants to honor the service of “citizen soldiers” who were “veterans,” and those words really mean what they are intended to mean, then the organization is honor-bound to stand up and oppose recent efforts to redefine those terms according to modern sensibilities, ignoring historical accuracy and the meaning of those terms at the time of the war itself.
Otherwise, the SCV would be guilty of perhaps the most horrendous heritage violation ever visited upon the memory of those men who served as soldiers and sailors in the armed forces of the Confederacy. It would be denigrating their service by rendering meaningless the status of “soldier.” That would be wrong.
When you look into the details of history, it isn’t as clean as it is presented in the history books. The writers of history have to pick and choose, and their ideologies govern what they choose to include and to emphasize. Pick different facts, emphasize different facts, and you get a different interpretation of history. I am sure that there were black slaves who fought at least occasionally alongside their masters during the Civil War; what one makes of this depends upon where one is coming from, and how one defines “soldier”. In fact, there were others who some would call “soldiers” and others would not–various ranger groups, Quantrell’s raiders, and other groups that cover the spectrum from irregular army unit to outlaw.
And it seems to me that how the SCV want to honor their heritage is up to them — it is their heritage, after all.
I’m simply asking the SCV to be as good as its word. And no, it really doesn’t matter how we may want to define “soldier.” “Soldier” is a status that’s determined at the time. You don’t get to change history to make yourself feel better, and you don’t get to do it in a way that denigrates the real service offered by real soldiers. You don’t get to redefine “soldier” to satisfy some presentist agenda. Enslaved blacks were not citizens, so they by definition could not be “citizen soldiers,” which is what the SCV says it honors. Or are we going to redefine “citizenship” beyond recognition and historical reality as well? Given present debates over immigration, that would be interesting indeed.
Well they are not segregated like the Yankee army or the Sons of Union Vets. By any definition, if there was only one Black Confederate soldier, he at least served in the ranks of whites . He would have been welcome at any Confederate reunion and his descendants would have been welcome at any SCV camp.
The only people I see trying to change history are people like you, Andy Hall, Kevin Levin and Corey Meyers.
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
So, George, bringing along your slave was actually an effort to integrate the Confederate army? Really? How come white southerners then forgot the Confederacy’s commitment to integration? Were they dishonoring the Confederacy?
Did Klansmen, White Leaguers, and Red Shirts stop before terririzing and killing blacks to see whether they were Confederate “veterans”? After all, you would think they would do so, given the heritage of spearheading integration that you want to celebrate in honoring the Confederacy.
And I guess you believe that enslaved blacks were citizens? Or does the SCV not know the proper use of the word? Come on, George. You say you know history. Were enslaved blacks citizens or not? Does the SCV really mean what it says? Or are you afraid to speak truth to power?
It doesn’t speak well for southern honor or courage if you duck these questions while claiming to defend southern heritage.
A completely different tangent. If you are any kind of historian you know very well these actions were brought on by reconstruction. In short the Confederate vets were again fighting for their homes.
So what is the excuse for the riots in the North? Can’t stick to the topic at hand so you have to pull out the old racism card.?????
“Enslaved blacks were citizens” — sure they were prove they were not. Let’s see how long did it take the US to recognize the Indians as citizens??? Hunmmmm
GP
I’ve already discussed the 1863 draft riots. I think they were deplorable. Then again, unlike you, I don’t defend atrocities. Apparently you see the slaughter of US veterans at Memphis in 1866 or the killing of a hundred blacks at Colfax, Louisiana, in 1873 as Confederate soldiers defending their homes.
Do you defend other acts of terrorism in the same way?
Enslaved blacks weren’t citizens, George. Now explain why that is the case. Or is citizenship a meaningless concept to you?
I was talking about the 1960s.
“I don’t defend atrocities.” Really so you think that what was doe to the old men women and children, black and white, of the South was not an atrocity.
“US veterans at Memphis in 1866″ As I said before this was a result of reconstruction.
Confederate soldiers in 1873??? More reconstruction.
I never said anything about terrorism but if you really want to go there I will. Your choice.
So you have a historical document to prove that enslaved people were not considered citizens? Let’s see it.
Again I call to your attention the US constitution and the 14th amendment.
Abraham Lincoln Quote
“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”
by:
Abraham Lincoln
(1809-1865) 16th US President
Source:
Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858
Thank you for admitting that you endorse the slaughter of United States citizens in an open act of white supremacist terrorism. I’ll leave it at that.
Isn’t it amazing that the Confederate Army had all races serving side by side yet the Union army didn’t? Why is there a United States Colored Troop who served under white officers?
I also find it truly amazing with your education, you need to stoop so low as to use terms such as “white supremacist terrorism” to try and make a point . reminds you of being in the 4th grade huh???
Ask the Indians who are “white supremacist terrorist, ask the Japanese Americans. Ask any black who has more than a street corner education in history.
Which state was admitted to the Union as the last slave state? By whom? Who wanted to remove and did remove blacks from the United states and make this a white country? What state made free blacks post a bond to cross it boundaries?? Hint the person elected president in 1861 was from there.
What did you do look in the mirror and see yourself???
Here is another quote you may like.
“I don’t see why we can’t have some sense about negros, as well as horses, mules, iron, copper…but say N–g-r in the U.S. and from Sumner to Abby Kelley the whole country goes crazy…I like n–g-rs well enough as n–g-rs, but when fools and idiots try to make n–g-rs better than ourselves, I have a opinion.
Gen W. T. Sherman to Wm. M. McPherson letter, Sept. 1864
Thanks for admitting that you defend the cold-blooded murder of US army veterans by white supremacist terrorists. As for the rest, apparently you don’t read the blog very carefully.
Take care. I’ve made my point. You may continue to try to make yours.
By any definition if there was only one Black Confederate soldier, he served with white men at his side, you cannot say the same about the Yankee army. The descendants of this black soldier would be welcome at any SCV camp or Confederate reunion — not so with the Sons of union vets.
Who gave you the right to define soldier???
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
Let’s take the last question first, because it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire issue.
I operate on taking the definition of soldier that existed at the time. Any other definition is ahistorical. Do you disagree that on this issue we need to stick to the historical record?
I assume you understand what the word “citizen” means. You say you’ll answer questions. Of course, you have yet to do so, so let’s try again. Were enslaved blacks citizens? It doesn’t matter what you think … it’s a question of what definition operated at the time. So answer the question.
And, while we are at it, what happened to this Confederate heritage of supporting integration when Jim Crow came along? Why didn’t white southerners highlight this aspect of Confederate heritage in the 1950s and 1960s? Were they dishonoring the Confederacy in refusing to support integration?
You say you’ll answer questions. Fair enough. Answer them.
Really I do not care what definition you place on anything or operate under, I posted the definition of a soldier below . That is a defining what he thinks a soldier should be and it has worked for over a hundred years. You use the term “citizen soldiers” and then want to split hairs about slaves being citizens. I operate under something called historical records which we have posted plenty of.
I assume you understand what soldier means and tithe meaning of these cards we have been posting. Sure the blacks were citizens, and accepted in Confederate ranks, drew pensions and attended reunions . Their contributions to the Confederate cause was well understood, it doesn’t matter what you think.
Let’s see Jim Crow. You Yankee folks love to drag up racism don’t you? Wasn’t that something that started in the North with the Northern black codes??? Sure it was. Wasn’t Lincoln , Grant and Sherman, know to make racist remarks? Sure they were. Wasn’t the Union army segregated until about 1950? Sure it was. Wasn’t there more housing riots in the North and than in the South in the 1960s ?? Again and sure there was .
And for you and your Sons of Union veterans member here is some reading for you.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9501E0D8143AE533A2575AC0A96E9C94609ED7CF
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
In short, George, you don’t care about the meaning of words of the definitions employed at the time. You just make up definitions to suit your fancy and agenda. You are into promoting heritage politics, not history.
Thanks for admitting that, and thanks for admitting that definitions of citizenship mean nothing to you. Confederates did not regard slaves as citizens. Obviously you disagree with them. Take that up with the SCV.
I don’t care for any definition created applied by YOU!!! There were plenty of non citizens who fought for the Confederacy yet I have never heard of one being denied membership because of this fact. If you have please post the case history.
Gee you are trying awful hard to “out slick” can’t stick to historical fact????
GP
George, you’ve failed to answer the question.
There is not a question mark in your post above.
GP
Wow, truly honored to be in the presence of an expert on the Sons of Union Veterans and their practices. Since you profess expertise about the SUVCW… or is that hot air?… do tell specific examples of when and where a descendant of a black soldier would not be allowed into a camp of the SUVCW. Inquiring minds want to know.
Robert Moore
Sr Vice Commander, Dept of Md (includes MD., D.C., DE., WV, and VA)
George is having problems answering questions.
Really I have no trouble answering a post that is direcyed to me.
GP
The record shows otherwise, George.
I have plenty of responses on this board one including the Sons of Union, or you blind or just cannot read??
GP
I’ve read your responses. So have many other people. Sometimes they don’t answer the questions posed.
hey I am learning to dance around them from you!!!
“The writers of history have to pick and choose, and their ideologies govern what they choose to include and to emphasize. Pick different facts, emphasize different facts, and you get a different interpretation of history.”
In my opinion, this statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what historians actually do when they look at historical documents, assess the significance and meaning of those documents, and ultimately construct a meaningful historical narrative. Perhaps you allow your “ideologies” to guide your choices and analysis, but this only tells us about you, not about any other historian or work of historical interpretation. When historians interpret documents and records, they must explain why they make certain choices and arrive at certain conclusions, the explanations must make sense contextually with the rest of the extant documentary evidence, and must make adhere to accepted standards of interpretive methodology and reasoning. Merely invoking a preferred “ideology” is not only bad practice, but lazy and dishonest. You seem to be arguing for a completely relativist approach to history that can only result in a present-minded account that serves the “ideological” needs of the “historian” Sounds terribly close to a defense of “political correctness” to me.
Karl really doesn’t want to discuss the facts, which is a good thing, because he can’t always get the facts straight. He would doubtless respond that “getting the facts straight” is merely a manifestation of ideology. However, if we are to hold him to his own rules, that’s the extent of his contribution, and, having heard him out, the rest of us can move on. Note that what he says don’t really address the matter at hand.
I’ll discuss any fact you want to discuss. At least let my comments be posted right away unmolested.
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
George, I won’t molest your comments. But I won’t hang around my computer all day waiting for you to post. The posts will appear as you have presented them when they appear.
You may have nothing better to do on a Sunday, but I do.
Just let them be posted—unedited.
GP
Oh, George, believe me, they are unedited. The typos, the repeating question marks … it’s all you. I want people to see your answers as you offer them.
Goooood deal jest the wey I lke it.
GP
As I was saying …
Waht???????
GP
Karl really doesn’t want to discuss the facts, which is a good thing, because he can’t always get the facts straight. He would doubtless respond that “getting the facts straight” is merely a manifestation of ideology. However, if we are to hold him to his own rules, that’s the extent of his contribution, and, having heard him out, the rest of us can move on. Note that what he says don’t really address the matter at hand.
I wonder why people who believe as Karl does participate in these discussions at all, given their perspective. But apparently he believes that one can use whatever definition one wants to use when it comes to the term “soldier,” and that it really doesn’t matter what was understood at the time. Once you take that reasoning to its logical end, well, we can also debate about whether there were slaves, too. Or at least he can.
Brooks Simpson:
“…Given that the SCV is devoted to historical accuracy, and that part of that quest is to understand things as they were understood at the time, one would anticipate that the SCV would be at the forefront of efforts to counter the narrative that enslaved blacks could in fact be considered soldiers…
…I define veteran as someone who served as a soldier according to the status recognized at the time. That excludes enslaved blacks, who were not ‘citizens’ and who did not enjoy the status of ‘soldier.’ ”
*******
Abraham, Slave
Co. E, 4th Regt.
Henry Major, Colored Servant
Co. G, 56th Virginia Infantry
Names appear on a
“Register of Officers and Soldiers of the Army of the Confederate States who were killed in battle, or who died of wounds or disease.”
-Register compiled by the Confederate Adjutant and Inspector General’s Office from returns furnished by hospitals and by regimental and company officers.
*
I’ve found more than two and if I had a copy of that register I could find even more.
What was the Confederate A&IGO thinking?
You might want to check when that register was compiled.
If you are now arguing the enslaved blacks were citizens, that would strike people as historically inaccurate. Your grievance would be with the SCV. If you think its website is wrong, take it up with the SCV.
If you want to claim that enslaved blacks were soldiers, then you are also arguing that Robert E. Lee was either stupid or lying when he supported their enlistment, because one would assume Lee knew something about the men he commanded. So … do you believe Lee was stupid or lying?
Brooks, if these folks are considered soldiers by the Confederate Adjutant and Inspector General’s Office, then it would seem your only argument with the SCV is the designation “citizen soldier”. So maybe they should change it to say that they honor “citizen and slave soldiers” who fought for the Confederacy? As I said in my original comment it all depends which facts you want to pick and to emphasize.
I haven’t seen that evidence presented to me in a form that any reputable historian would accept. I’ve seen a vague assertion. When I’ve asked questions, I’ve seen people duck rather quickly.
I’m simply asking the SCV whether it means what it says. You say the SCV is in error. Tell the SCV about it, if you care so much about Confederate heritage.
You don’t get to pick your facts, unfortunately, when it comes to defining soldier status. There was a definition of “soldier” at the time, and that’s the definition that must be employed. Otherwise you would be casting a vote against historical accuracy. Is that how you wish to be understood?
Sorta splitting hairs on this aren’t you? heck they counted as at least 3/5, ain’t that what the Yankee government decided when the south wanted them to count as 1??
What difference does it mater when the register was compiled? The register still reflects Confederate service.
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
Evidently, George, you haven’t read the Constitution, and somehow the history of the early republic has eluded you to date.
The 3/5s clause does not define citizenship. It was developed in a convention where George Washington was the presiding officer and where it was Virginians, led by James Madison, who pushed for a more centralized government (indeed, the small government plan came from Connecticut). So now Virginians are Yankees?
I would say you shouldn’t change history, but then you would have to be familiar with the record before you sought to change it. Perhaps you need to read the document and learn a little about it before coming here.
I’ll wait.
You are right I haven’t read the entire constitution, I doubt you have either. However the 3/5s clause was the closest thing worked out to count the slaves as people. In fact I am not sure that the constitution defines citizen.
It is my understanding that “citizen of the United States was defined until well after the war. In 1870 or so. After the fact.
But— we are talking about the Confederate states. I do believe that the Confederate Constitution did not make a distinction between black or white citizens. Of course we do know that there were more free blacks in the south than in the North, and all were given the right to vote under the confederate constitution. However due to Lincoln’s illegal invasion we never got a chance to see how that would work out.
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
In short, you won’t tell us whether enslaved people were citizens, despite your promise to answer questions. However, you admit you haven’t read the Constitution.
Citizenship was a state as well as federal concern. Citizens had certain rights. I’ll leave it to you to do a little reading, because it really isn’t fair for me to discuss something with someone who confesses his fundamental ignorance.
The Fourteenth Amendment defined US citizenship. Since it came after the abolition of slavery (and you would know that if you had read the Constitution), it does not bear on the status of slaves.
Let me see if I got this right— 14th Adm. ratified July 9, 1868. War for Southern Independence 1861-1865. Do I see something wrong with the timeline?
Now thinking a little bit deeper into this I would say they were recognized about the same time wouldn’t you? But in 1861 and under the Confederate Constitution no difference was noted.
Hey just using your references.
GP
In short, you admit you don’t have any evidence that enslaved blacks were considered citizens.
You do know that states had their own definitions of citizenship, don’t you? So could you tell me which Confederate states recognized enslaved blacks as citizens, with evidence? Thanks.
And you have nothing proving they were not considered citizens in the Confederate states. We know for sure they were not in the US per the 14th!!!!!!!
Good try, George. Just not good enough.
The case of Henry Major is less clear-cut than Border Ruffian’s comment would suggest.
There is a small set of service record cards for Henry Major at the National Archives, available through Footnote. It only consists of two cards, documenting his death on March 23, 1862, in the hospital at the Federal prison camp at Camp Morton, Indianapolis, Indiana. One of these two cards ascribes him the rank of private, describing him as “Pvt. (Colord Svt.),” which ultimately got copied into the records of the Confederate Adjutant and Inspector General’s Office.
Henry was presumably the servant of Corporal William E. Major of the same company. William Major enlisted in July 1861, and died of typhoid fever at Chattanooga on April 11, 1862.
The only record I see of Henry Major’s military service is that noting his death, based on information provided by Federal government and noted in Confederate military records. Unlike Corporal Major, there are no cards indicating Henry’s date of enlistment, presence with the 56th Virginia, or receipt of pay. Given that such records exist for William during that same period, one would expect a similar record to exist for Henry. But it doesn’t seem to.
Perhaps, when captured, Henry Major told his captors he was a private in the hope of better treatment. Perhaps some harried Federal processing clerk just assumed that to be the case, and wrote it down. Or perhaps a similar notation was inadvertently added by some clerk in Richmond when the certificate noting Henry Major’s death crossed his desk. What the actual story is, we’ll probably never know. But given the absence of a record of him originating from his own company and regiment — when that very same record exists for William E. Major — the claim that he actually held the rank of private or was considered to be legally enlisted is questionable.
Andy surprised to see you here after I sapnked your butt on your own website. Still posting your opinion and getting the facts wrong I see.
George Purvis
Please tell us where Andy Hall is in error on this issue.
It bis posted below.
GP
Your post does not counter Andy’s post. It simply repeats the information he’s already discussed.
Andy Hall presumes what may have been , or what may have happened, which is just another opinion.
Really, you do not see the added information? There is something of significant difference posted. And you complain about my formation of sentences and typos?
You are a trained historian yet you seem to lack the basic research tools and skills to determine the service of this man. And this is the part that really gets me YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE YOU.
GP
Thanks for sharing your opinion, George.
Not an opinion, it is historical fact. Big difference.
GP
We understand what you believe.
I didn’t respond to your last couple of comments on my blog because I’d said my piece, and saw no point in repeating myself. Although I often reply to comments there, I’m not obligated to. Getting in the last word is not the same thing as being correct on the merits of the case.
Anyone who wants to read how you “sapnked” my butt is welcome to do so here.
Yeah you knew you didn’t have the facts then and you do not have them now. You are just here with your opinions and biased agenda bashing everything Confederate. Apparently you feel you are not obligated to post all the facts either or at least add a notation “ as far as I know.”
Good deal I love it
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
You are entitled to your opinion, George. Too bad it’s nothing more than that.
and it seems you have an opinion also——–
This is EXACTLY what the adjutant was thinking. Adjutants tracked the number of officers and servants in units because the number of rations a unit received were for officers and “authorized” servants, slaves, in this instance. This man was a slave, not a soldier, the adjutant portrayed his status clearly. If he was considered anything else, he would have been given the dignity of a last name. Slaves had last names, they were given these names of choice them for themselves. When they enlisted as soldiers they used these names in the US Army they furnished their names.
Here is the OR on CSA rations from Google books.
http://books.google.com/books?id=L50OAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1056&dq=confederate+rations+authorised+servants&hl=en&ei=ITKXTau6IcPdtweM5s2MDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
And that link proves he wasn’t a soldier how????? Do you have a defination of a soldier?
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
George, how did the Confederacy define (a) citizen (b) soldier?
After all, if you’re defending Confederate heritage, you should know the answers to these questions, as well as the evidence to document those answers. Please be specific, and post links to the evidence. Thanks.
I have no idea how the Confederacy defined soldier. Why don’t you tell us and post some sources? Heck I posted an old 1864 Yankee definition, that works for me maybe the Confederates had a different idea.
After all you come here attacking the SCV and the South. Makes one wonder about your agenda. You don’t want blacks to receive any recognition for their service to the Confederacy. WHY??? Why do you really care, were you turned down for membership in the SCV?? Know a black person who was turned down?? Tell us it is in the sense of historical accuracy. Yeah right.
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
So you admit that you have no idea how the Confederacy defined soldier.
That renders your complaint about who was and was not a soldier meaningless, since you’ve now admitted that you don’t know what you are talking about. Good enough. Thanks for your candor in admitting your absolute ignorance.
I’ve never applied for membership in the SCV, nor do I know personally any black person who has. I’m simply holding the SCV accountable for the words it employs. Apparently you don’t give the SCV the same sort of respect. Do you think the SCV is stupid or ignorant?
That again is only your opinion which amounts to nothing and renders anything you say worthless.
I am still waiting for you to post a historical document with the definition. You do have something right????
GP
You apparently are unable to answer the questions. Thanks for sharing your opinions.
Seems to me YOU have trouble answering questions. Again I say what did the US say about citizenship fo slaves. Not after the war but before or during.
Answer up.
GP
I assume you are aware of the Dred Scott decision.
Brook,
I never said I knew. you can’t find the place where I said I did. Nice try though.
So then you admit you know nothing about the SCV and you want to hold them accountable?? Accountable to what?? Your belief in what or how a heritage group should define itself?? Are you telling me that all heritage groups must account to you and meet your criteria???? What a joke. You must really think of yourself as an important to hold anyone accountable of anything. From what I read on this piece of crap page you have here you should be sued by the parent of any student who went through you classes. You are biased , lack basic research tools and skills and know little or nothing of the War For Southern Independence.
Is the SCV stupid?? I don’t know, I am not a member. But if I compare them to factors I do know, which is you, I would say that they are a bunch of genius.
Thanks for sharing, George. I’ll take that as your final word on the subject.
That’s a capital idea, old fellow! From the Regulations for the Army of the Confederate States, 1862 :
This specific quote is from the 1862 edition (pp. 385-86), but virtually identical language is included in all editions, from 1861 to 1864. I have not found an 1865 edition; one may not have ever gone to print.
1861, p. 185-86, http://www.archive.org/stream/regulatio00conf#page/184/mode/2up
1863, p. 385-86, http://www.archive.org/stream/regulationsfor00conf#page/386/mode/2up
1864, p. 385-86, http://www.archive.org/stream/regulations00conf#page/384/mode/2up
I should also mention that this same language, almost word-for-word, immediately follows the passage you quote from Augsut Kautz, below, applied to the Union Army. (He notes that African Americans may be enlisted in the wartime volunteer forces only, not the regular army. Need I mention that there is, of course, no such annotation in the Confederate regulations?)
You acknowledged that you “have no idea how the Confederacy defined soldier.” The Confederacy was quite clear on who qualified for enlistment, so now you do.
Thanks, Andy. I’m still waiting for George to provide evidence that enslaved blacks were Confederate citizens.
Hey Brook didn’t you provide the answer in the 14th Adm. ??????????? And by your own source they were not citizens of the United States???????? Therefore these smae Blacks only became citizens in 1868????????? Isn’t that what you posted??????? Can’t you remember??????????
george
Good morning, George. I’m sure you think you are making a point.
One can be a citizen of a state as well as of a nation, at least as the concept evolved in the nineteenth century in the United States. Free blacks were citizens in the New England states; they could also vote (with restrictions) in New York. However, contrary to your assertion, enslaved blacks were not citizens, period.
One note: apparently you think you make your point even more persuasively or forcefully if you hit punctuation keys multiple times. You do make a point about yourself, but I doubt it’s a point you would want to make.
Good Job Andy. Now that we know what the official Confederate definition of a soldier was. Looking over your reference, I didn’t notice if these regulations were for service in the Confederate Troops or if this covered units raised in the states.
To bad you found the info, should have let the “historian” do it. Saved his sorry butt again did you?
As stated we (you and I) know the Confederate definition of a soldier, we also know the official policy of the Confederate states regarding black soldiers, but the fact still remains these rules were not strictly followed. To much documentation proves that. Now regardless of these rules and regulations you just cannot go back and change history.
Ah, George, earlier you admitted you didn’t know the definition of a soldier used by the Confederacy.
Why are you lying? Either you lied then or you are lying now.
Apparently you are the person who wants to change history to accord with your beliefs. I do wonder about one thing, however: how come you are so eager to claim that blacks willingly served the Confederate cause while dismissing the slaughter of hundred of blacks, including US military veterans, by white supremacist terrorists? Why do you defend atrocities? Do you discriminate in your treatment of US veterans, past and present, by race? Because, if you think the military service of all veterans should be honored, one wonders why you continue to defend the slaughter of US veterans by white supremacists.
Have a Dixie Day.
If you’ve found a state military regulation that says something different, please share it.
The Confederacy created a “Regular Army” in 1861. This was similar to the existing army of the United States prior to the war and was intended to be about the same size (10,000+).
I believe the regulations listed by AH were intended for this Regular Army of the Confederate States.
Certain statements indicate that to be the case-
1861 edition (right after title page-):
“It also contains, all the laws appertaining to the Army–both Regular and Volunteer.”
http://www.archive.org/stream/regulatio00conf#page/n5/mode/2up
In the 1863 edition Article II was revised to specify Regular Army:
“Rank of officers and non-commissioned officers, in Regular Army.”
http://www.archive.org/stream/regulationsfor00conf#page/n31/mode/2up/search/regular
Just out of curiosity, do you know how the enlistment of Native Americans was justified in light of the above? I assume they may have been considered auxilliaries rather then members of the CS Army, but I truth I have no idea.
Thanks,
Mike
That’s an excellent question, and I don’t see a clear answer to that in the regs. It’s possible that, as in other situations, Native Americans, like Latinos, could be considered “white enough” for enlistment depending on the time and place.
Shoulda’ added: Throughout the South, right up almost to the present, the definition of what counts as “white” has been somewhat flexible according to the time, place and situation. What generally wasn’t flexible was barriers placed against those known to have any African descent, e.g., the “one-drop rule.”
Andy,
Excellent question.
Looking at just the few states that I have researched lately for Blacks that served, I can tell you for sure that Tennessee, and Louisiana enlisted blacks as early in the war. Alabama enlisted Creoles white and Spanish, as near as I can tell, and Texas enlisted Mexicans. I have some strong references that point to the Richmond Howitzers as possibly having some Blacks early on, but more research is required to make any positive statement on that unit. I recall sometime ago I read that Asians served the Confederacy, but in all honestly I have not looked for them. Using Asians in the CSA as a search term I did see a fellow name Kirby Crabtree has a facebook page that addresses that issue. I know Jews/Hebrews served but not sure if that is considered a race and I won’t even discuss that issue.
Not only did the Cherokee serve the Confederacy but the Mississippi Choctaw did also. To what degree I have no idea.
Again referring to my research, I am not sure that Blacks were allowed to serve in Confederate troops except as musicians listed as F&S. It should be noted that I haven’t put a lot of time into Confederate Troops so I could be wrong on this point.
Your one drop rule would not apply in the cases mentioned above. It does seem that white went out the door early at least for the units raised by states.
GP
Both North and South were enlisting Indian regiments when both had the white only provision in their regulations. The War Dept. and the A&IGO are the ones who create the regulations. They can tweak them any way they choose.
“You might want to check when that register was compiled.”
During the war.
I would think you would know more about the evidence you cite. You have no date, no place of publication? And, if it covers the entire war, it would be compiled after the war … which means it could not be compiled by Confederate authorities, because there was no Confederacy after the war.
Look at the information you present. Abraham, a slave, in the 4th Regiment. From which state? Surely you know that simply to say “4th Regiment” is meaningless. Yet you offer that as evidence?
Again, I ask, were enslaved blacks citizens? Yes or no?
Brooks Simpson:
“I would think you would know more about the evidence you cite. You have no date, no place of publication? [-Compiled Service Records, National Archives] And, if it covers the entire war, it would be compiled after the war …”
It was compiled during the war.
I did not say it covered the entire war.
***
“Look at the information you present. Abraham, a slave, in the 4th Regiment. From which state? Surely you know that simply to say “4th Regiment” is meaningless. Yet you offer that as evidence?”
State not given. That’s why he was filed in the miscellaneous section.
***
“Again, I ask, were enslaved blacks citizens? Yes or no?”
I’m not a member of the SCV and my post was not in reference to any statement or position made by the SCV. My reply was to your statement.
So … you have no publication information about the evidence you cite, and you can’t even really pin down when the data was compiled. There’s no way to check what you’ve offered.
And you can’t answer a simple question as to whether enslaved blacks were or were not citizens.
Thanks for your contributions.
Why does he need a publication date. I published it yesterday. Can you prove us wrong??? Yes or no?????
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
Generally speaking, George, someone offers publication information. I asked simple questions he was unable to answer. You have that same problem.
Linking to something is not the same as publishing it. I guess you didn’t know that. I’m not surprised, given your lack of knowledge about other topics already covered.
So consider yourself proven wrong.
Is your question mark key sticking?
Still having problems answering the questions I posed, I see. I didn’t know that duck, dodge and run was part of defending Confederate heritage.
Don’t dance. Answer the question, can you prove us wrong??? YES or NO
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
George, I’ve answered the question. I can’t help it if you don’t read the answer, just as I can’t help it if you haven’t read the Constitution or that you have no idea how the Confederacy defined soldier. I’m not responsible for your willful ignorance. You are.
No you haven’t you have danced around the issue. Prove by any historical document that Abraham — slave did not serve in the Confederacy or the 4th Regt. as posted. Don’t talk — DO IT .
GP
You would first have to prove he did serve as a soldier, and to do that you would also have to identify which 4th Regiment we are discussing. Come back when you’ve done that.
I have to prove nothing, I say he was and have historical documents to back me up.
We all know your way of thinking — by opinion– which you have posted here for everyone to read. Granted your opinions are only shared by a few and do not agree with any historical documents. These opinions amount to nothing more than wasted web space.
GP
Thanks for saying you don’t believe you have to offer proof in support of your opinions.
For Henry Major, see:
http://civilwartalk.com/forums/showthread.php?33926-Henry-Major-Servant-56th-VA-Infantry…counted-as-Soldier-by-Confederate-A-amp-IGO
This might tell us why “Border Ruffian” was a bit vague about this fellow, who in fact does not appear to have appeared on the muster roll of the regiment cited. It reminds us that data taken out of context can be distorted.
I didn’t say he was on a muster roll.
Then you would have to discuss the source of the information. What you are telling me is that the men in the 56th Virginia did not recognize Henry Major as a soldier. Otherwise, he’d be on a muster roll.
You do understand what a CSR is, and where they are? That’s not the same source as the one you originally cited. You offer no way for anyone to ascertain the truth or context of your assertion. That severely damages its value as evidence.
Try Cornelius Oliver, 24th Batt. Miss. Cav. he does not have any cards , not on any rosters I have found, but he served so what is your point?????
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
You’ve just revealed that there’s no contemporary documentation of this person’s service. So what is your point? That you can make things up, regardless of the evidence? Not a good thing for a defender of historical accuracy to claim.
Work on that sticking question mark key.
Right exactly my point. The records are incomplete. You want to argue muster roll while completely ignoring other historical documents.
It is proven this is not something made up, we have a grave with the wrong name , we have CSR cards, we have a listing in the CWS&S and all of this was done by ———- A YANKEE.
So now tell me what did you find on Pvt. Cornelius Oliver? For him there is no muster roll listing, no CSR cards, I do know where the grave is , there is documentation —- if you know where to find it. Surely as a historian and a teacher, you know where to find the answers.
When you get past this one, I’ll give you some more
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
You haven’t produced evidence to support your assertion. The burden of proof is on you, George.
Nope I know I am right. You prove me wrong.
GP
I understand that you believe you are right. Still, the burden of proof is on you. Please present that proof. Thank you.
Then I shall be right until you prove me wrong. Surely that is not a problem with a man of your education who is dealing with a person who supports “white supremacist terrorism”
Continue to believe what you want to believe.
Take care. I’ve made my point. You may continue to try to make yours.
“Abraham, Slave” is not on a muster roll either…
And you say this because you’ve examined the muster rolls? Either you have (in which case you would be able to tell us in which regiment Abraham “served”) or you haven’t (in which case you would be confessing that you don’t know what you are talking about).
All you are doing is calling into question the very evidence you’ve cited.
Brooks Simpson:
“All you are doing is calling into question the very evidence you’ve cited.”
Not at all.
“You do understand what a CSR is…?”
Very well, I do.
*
It’s your problem, not mine.
Why did the Confederate A&IGO place the names of slaves on their register of deaths of officers and soldiers?
It’s not my problem. The burden of proof is on you, and so far, you’ve asserted that something appears in a document you can’t quite find, and you can’t explain why the individual doesn’t appear on a muster roll. You can’t tell us the source of the information, and you don’t cite the criteria of inclusion … because you don’t even have the document at hand.
Absent the context you refuse/are unable to provide, your “evidence” is worthless … and that’s your problem, not mine.
But if you want to argue that the SCV doesn’t know what a soldier is, that’s fine. If you want to argue that they don’t believe in historical accuracy, that’s fine. And if you can’t answer the simple question of whether enslaved blacks were or were not citizens, then we can conclude that you have nothing else to offer in this discussion. Thanks for contributing.
Brooks Simpson:
“…and you can’t explain why the individual doesn’t appear on a muster roll…”
I have no need or want to explain it. That is my point.
They were not enlisted and not on any muster roll.
The Confederate A&IGO knew this (the muster rolls were on file in their office).
They knew they were only servants attached to the army (“Abraham, Slave”)…yet still placed their names on that register.
And so you’ve now completed undermining your own argument, because, as you say, they were “only” slaves … not soldiers.
That makes one wonder why you brought them up. But it’s good to see that you’ve finally come around.
You still don’t get it….lol
Oh, I got it some time ago. You didn’t get that I did. And that’s what makes it really funny.
And still you haven’t proven BR wrong. There is a listing that survived more than 100 years and you are gonna dispute that??? All you are doing is arguing on your opinion to try and make a point.
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
Thanks for sharing.
Anyone who has researched any confederate unit knows the most muster rolls are incomplete. Have you researched the muster rolls? I honestly think BR has a better idea what he is talking about than you. And you are a trained historian????
MAYO, Henry (Negro Slave). G, 56th Inf. Mar. 23, 1862 VA
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~indiana42nd/Confederate_Burials_Crown_Hill_RevIII.pdf (No CSR found, under Mayo, should be Major)
From the CWSS (Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System) A yankee website.
Henry Major (First_Last)
Regiment Name 56 Virginia Infantry.
Side Confederate
Company G
Soldier’s Rank_In Private
Soldier’s Rank_Out Private
Alternate Name
Notes
Film Number M382 roll 35
Things ain’t looking good for your team.
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
George, Andy’s already discussed this case above.
In this case, the status of the individual is clearly that of a slave. By choice, slaves aren’t allowed to do anything their owners do not allow them to do. Nor were they understood to be citizens. Do you agree or disagree?
I don’t understand this as a contest between two teams. But I do have a question. April is tax month. If the NARA’s a Yankee institution, could you explain why you pay taxes to another Yankee institution? Or do you file as a foreign national?
It would seem to me that if you were as committed as you say you are that you would reject Yankee authority, period. And have you informed the United States government that you reject its authority? Are you a legal alien, or illegal? Papers, please.
I pay taxes to a lot of Yankee institutions that I don’t believe in.
Your point????
GP
So, do you question the legitimacy of the United States government? If so, why are you a United States citizen?
Do you advocate the overthrow of the United States government, or open resistance to it?
Because my people were here before yours!!!!!!
LOL LOL LOL Nope that line of questioning won’t work either. What is the problem with you a history poof ( this is not a typo) who can’t stick to a historical debate????
In the context of history do you believe in changing the facts to support your agenda?
GP
Apparently George is unwilling to answer questions about his citizenship or his allegiance to the United States.
That’s a database entry citing the same microfilmed records available digitally through Footnote. It could be listed in a dozen, or a hundred, different databases, and it’s still just the same two cards.
—- and those two cards verify service. I know of several men who only have one or no cards yet their service is verified by other sources.
Your point???
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
If they adhered to their own standards, they would have to kick out those members descended from soldiers who deserted (as great numbers of Confederates did, espeically late in the war), since such service was not considered “honorable.”
And if they did not do so, then they themselves would not be men of honor, because honorable people would not lie.
We have two responders who claim the SCV is wrong. If they are men of honor they will bring that information to the attention of the SCV. Otherwise they are complicit in committing historical fraud, and dishonoring the service of Confederate soldiers.
And then so should the Sons of Union vets. You have no idea why a man deserted. You have no idea the horror they had seen or the condition of there families. Many times they were listed as deserters and were on leave, in a hospital or a POW.
“Though the determination of the fully number is a bit complicated, the total would seem to have been well over 200,000. From New York there were 44,913 deserters according to the records; from Pennsylvania, 24,050; from Ohio, 18,354.”
http://www.civilwarhome.com/desertion.htm
Source: “The Civil War and Reconstruction” by Randall and Donald
Nearly all Confederate units saw continuous action, not the same can be said about the union units. Units that enter war at 1,100 men were down to 60 and 80 in 1865.
Not only these reasons but your opinion doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
I see. You’re arguing that desertion was honorable service.
Have you informed the SCV of your opinion?
Did Robert E. Lee see desertion as honorable service? I don’t think so. Why are you right and Lee wrong?
I never said one way or the other, I said a lot of men have been listed as deserters, and were dead, in a hospital or on leave. Yes some men saw the horrors of Gettysburg, Shiloh, Petersburg, served honorably and then deserted. I for one haven’t earned the right to judge them, anyway, seems like that right is already taken by a bunch of Yankees.
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
Why are you afraid to answer my questions?
Fact is, in black and white, right here on this board I did answer you.
Still trying to out slick me huh??? Ain’t gonna happen.
GP
George continues to refuse to answer questions.
“And then so should the Sons of Union vets.”
Ah, yes… once again… in the case of a new member applying for membership in the SUVCW, can you provide examples of where close scrutiny of military records was not practiced? As a past camp commander and past department recruiting officer… I’ll need specifics… ummm, that is, if you can provide them.
Can you provide the same for the SCV?? Hummm???? Waiting
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
George, are you unwilling to substantiate your charge? Or are you unable to do it? After all, if you make charges that you can’t substantiate, that would render your claims, here and elsewhere, worthless. Coming on top of your admission that you don’t know what you are talking about in a number of cases, that would be quite a confession.
What charge????
GP
I can’t help it if you can’t follow your own line of argument.
Take care. I’ve made my point. You may continue to try to make yours.
For everyone else: CSRs (Combined Service Records) were created after the war, so while the various documents used to create the CSRs may indeed have been used by the CSA’s bureaucracy, the CSA by definition could not use CSRs. After all, they were created after the war’s conclusion … when there was no Confederacy. BorderRuffian does not seem to understand this.
He’s free to bring forward the CSRs for the two individuals he cited. If he doesn’t, he has managed to sabotage his own argument … again.
Brooks Simpson:
“For everyone else: CSRs (Combined Service Records) were created after the war, so while the various documents used to create the CSRs may indeed have been used by the CSA’s bureaucracy, the CSA by definition could not use CSRs. After all, they were created after the war’s conclusion … when there was no Confederacy. BorderRuffian does not seem to understand this.”
That’s a good one…
I’ve only reviewed about 100,000 of them. When I saw “US War Dept.” stamped on some of them I sort of got the idea we lost the war.
“He’s free to bring forward the CSRs for the two individuals he cited.”
The records can be found at footnote.com.
I didn’t know you fought in the Civil War.
Good try.
Andy Hall’s already summarized the evidence to be found at footnote.com. You’re a little late to that party, too.
Next time, try harder.
I suppose when dealing with a private membership group, the definitions and contexts are up those in the group, not the outsiders, whether that results in logical consistency or not. In this case, I think it hinges on what’s “honorable”, and whether that includes a slave risking his life in battle involuntarily, a slave risking his life in battle voluntarily, and/or a black person risking his life in battle voluntarily. To nitpick on “citizen” is not too productive in my opinion, because the context for the use of the word “citizen” is not a legal one. As you mention, the historical record should support whatever the claim is in whatever the case is, and I would imagine that if evidence exists in support of any black male’s service having been seen as honorable by other soldiers at the time, then this would not take anything away from the honor of those whose veteran status is certain.
I disagree. Words mean things, and “citizen” has a very specific meaning. We argue about it today, and I don’t think anyone would take kindly to having their position characterized as nit-picking. I think the SCV knows exactly what it is saying, and, until it says otherwise, I think we should act under that assumption.
I also think the muster rolls are critical, as are enlistment papers. There’s no evidence that either individual mentioned has any such documentation to support a claim that they were soldiers … and I note that we are talking about exactly two people. That would seem to be a bit below the estimates one usually hears.
The SCV does not get to determine the definition of a soldier as employed during the Civil War. It many choose to broaden its definition (and thus become ahistorical), but, until it does so, I am going to assume that the organization means what it says. If the SCV wants to now claim that it does not mean what it says, or that it is careless in its use of words, it is free to do so.
So what we have to date is some paperwork done by a Richmond bureaucrat (and taken out of context) … and you would think that if War Department bureaucrats and military administration staffers considered these people soldiers, they would have mentioned this in 1864-65, when the Confederate Congress debated whether to enroll enslaved blacks.
I’ve heard the spiel from the SCV about “citizen soldier” many times and none of those times, until your post here, did I even think about taking “citizen” in its formal definition of legal status. It just seemed obvious to me that the context meant something else. You have provoked me to think about it for sure, but I remain in disagreement on that point in regards to said spiel.
My prior comment was not made at all in regards to the records being discussed in this comment thread. I feel that someone applying to the SCV as a descendant of any black male, slave or free, would have to have his application considered by the local/state chapter for its merits, and I similarly think that any pronouncement by SCV brass on these grounds should accompanied by evidence.
I was offering broader observations in response to your comment.
Clearly the SCV could clarify what it meant by “citizen soldier.” Our discussion suggests that at least it is subject to multiple interpretations.
and “you think” you don’t know. A bit of diofference , just using your standards.
George, I don’t understand what you are saying. Do you?
Are you arguing that the SCV doesn’t know what it is talking about? Do you not take it at its word?
Seems to me that if you feel that way, you should direct your comments to the SCV.
Sure you use ” I think” a lot to try and make a point. Don’t you know?? I know what a CSR represents and I know that a muster roll may not contain all the names of men who served. This is not something I have to guess at .
GP
I also think the muster rolls are critical, as are enlistment papers.
Then show the enlistment papers for the people you are discussing.
Please explain why Confederate muster rolls are unreliable, and why the SCV should therefore not use them as a record of service. Was Confederate staff work so bad that the Confederacy could not keep accurate records? After all, we are not talking about missing muster rolls; we are talking about muster rolls you claim are flawed, because they don’t contain the names of people you argue served.
Enlistment papers for a Confederate?? Why should I go hunting another document when he have his CSRs. Have you viewed a CSR card??? An enlistment roll? LOL LOL LOL someday I may try to locate these papers, right now I am satisfied with what has been posted and you cannot prove wrong.
Continue the stupid act if you must. You are just acting ignorant in the face of historical documents which you cannot prove wrong yet continue to argue about.
GP
Take care. I’ve made my point. You may continue to try to make yours.
It looks to me like BorderRuffian did indeed present historical evidence and pointed to where it could be found. Andy Hall verified the existence of this evidence. The real argument seems to be over interpreting what this evidence means. Different people will interpret it differently, depending on their pre-existing ideology. A perfect example of what I said earlier about ideology driving history. Historians today do not differ in their interpretation of the Civil War, Reconstruction, etc. from historians of the 1920s and 1930s because they are smarter, more enlightened, or have a different basic set of facts; they differ because they adhere to a different factual emphasis and interpretation — a different consensus driven by a different ideology.
Actually, Andy posted about the information and its source two hours before BorderRuffian did, and BorderRuffian only pointed to footnote.com long after Andy had identified the source, so let’s get our facts straight.
Oh, that’s right, in your eyes whether Andy or BorderRuffian brought this forth first is a matter of ideology, right, and so the fact that Andy posted them first and BorderRuffian demonstrates no knowledge of their contents aside from what Andy posted is simply a matter of opinion, since you cite BorderRuffian as preceding Andy. The evidence argues a different case, but, given your reasoning, you aren’t held to those rules.
Since you believe that ideology drives interpretation, there’s no use in discussing with you what Andy presented, because you’ll just claim that whatever one says is simply a manifestation of that ideology … which, of course, would have to apply to your own comments as well, if you are going to be intellectually consistent. Your position is a wonderful way to duck the discussion, although it is also rather transparent. Given your premises, it would be a waste of time to discuss issues of evidence with you, and that would tend to bring an end to your usefulness as a participant. Thanks for your contribution.
Well, OK, lets get our facts straight. The fact is that the evidence BorderRuffian posted does exist, though in your early comments you cast doubts on that. When it was shown to exist, you changed your story from casting doubt on its existence to saying that it doesn’t really matter whether it exists or not. You seem to think that cheap rhetorical tricks are a good substitute for reasoned discussion — a curious attitude for a historian!
“As I said in my original comment it all depends which facts you want to pick and to emphasize.” Remember who said that? You.
It’s understandable, given your perspective, that you would be selective with your facts, mangle their interpretation, and so on, because it all derives from your ideology, right? That you project your own belief system on others is something else entirely.
BR did not cite footnote.com. Andy Hall did. BR then jumped on that bandwagon, because he was unable to cite evidence properly; however, Andy and others had already taken apart his “evidence.” You tried to sidestep that by saying it was all a matter of opinion driven by ideology, although you didn’t seem to have a position so much as a commentary.
That you confuse a request for evidence with questioning whether it exists is your problem … a product of your ideology, according to your world view. The same goes for your claim that I changed my story. That’s just more of your ideologically-driven “interpretation” of selective facts (again, according to your world view). As such, it’s easy to dismiss.
“You seem to think that cheap rhetorical tricks are a good substitute for reasoned discussion — a curious attitude for a historian!” So you say. Seems to me you’re projecting again. After all, you are the master of the cheap rhetorical trick as a way to avoid reasoned discussion, as several posters have already pointed out. Thanks for demonstrating that fact yet again. What your ideology makes of that I’ll leave you to ponder.
Andy Hall only presents enough info to make his point I have posted more above. Argue with the facts. Your opinions and definations are wrong anyway.
Defination of a soldier—
In the fullest sense, any man in the military service who receives pay, whether sworn in or not, is a soldier, because he is subject to military law. Under this general head, laborers, teamsters, sutlers, chaplains, &c. are soldiers. In a more limited sense, a private soldier is a man enlisted in the military service to serve in the cavalry, artillery, or infantry. He is said to be enlisted when he has been examined, his duties of obedience explained to him, and after he has taken the prescribed oath.
General August Kautz’s, USA,”Customs of Service, for Non-Commissioned Officers and Soldiers” (1864), page. 11
George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
So now you’re accepting the word of a Yankee, eh?
Does Kautz mention slaves or servants in his list? Did they take an oath? Were they paid?
We await evidence on these issues. After all, you’ve offered the definition. Now you have to live with it.
Why not??? I am always told how Big Yankee Chief is called Honest Abe and about all the good deeds he did. If he is so hones t and good then I have to believe all his little followers are the same.
To answer your questions —– YES!!!! READ slowly “Under this general head, laborers, teamsters, sutlers, chaplains, &c. are soldiers.” To expand more on that statement all you have to do is look at the makeup of today’s military to see similarities to these various jobs. We now use motorized vehicles instead of horses, we use heavy equipment, bulldozers, backhoes etc. instead of shovels.
You did serve didn’t you?????
BTW heard that argument before regarding sources. On one hand you cannot believe the word of a Yankee on the other he sits to the right hand of God. Seems to me in presenting any argument it is always a Yankee who disputes the source.
GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
Thanks for sharing your opinion, George. Try to take care of that sticking question mark key.
Again it is fact not opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!What?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Take care. I’ve made my point. You may continue to try to make yours.
But try to work on those sticky keys on your keyboard.
Hey Brook why do we run out of places to reply 9n this sorry tail blog???
See you tomorrow.
Have a Dixie day.
You sure love to use statements like the above don’t you. Most people I debate have way less education than you yet they are able to stick to historical fact. Something you cannot do. Fact of the matter is you really just have a biased agenda and are grasping at straws so that you may save face. To bad your pathetic efforts only rise to the level of your history knowledge.
All I’m doing is reminding you what you have said, George. I understand your frustration and embarrassment at being thus exposed. I couldn’t have done it without you.
You may continue to vent and rage away. My work is done.
Have a Dixie Day.
Brook, love those he she names!!!!!!!!! Yep you work is done you have proven once again that a liberal history poof ( love that word) just cannot stand toe to toe with the facts. Hey don’t feel bad, you do make an excellent play on words, like “white supremacist terrorism” And I love how you split hairs on citizen soldier. Especially when there is absolutely no reason n to bring forth an argument in the first place. See that is your strong points, other than that you are just a shallow, biased individual living your miserable life.
Rage?????????????????????????????????????? I haven’t even started. I am having a great time playing with you, this is what live for.
“you are just a shallow, biased individual living your miserable life.”
“Rage?????????????????????????????????????? I haven’t even started. I am having a great time playing with you, this is what live for.”
Apparently. Others may consider your last statement evidence that you are “a shallow, biased individual living your miserable life.” But I need not go there.
Have a Dixie Day.
“Thanks for admitting that you defend the cold-blooded murder of US army veterans by white supremacist terrorists. As for the rest, apparently you don’t read the blog very carefully.”
You sure love to use statements like the above don’t you. Most people I debate have way less education than you yet they are able to stick to historical fact. Something you cannot do. Fact of the matter is you really just have a biased agenda and are grasping at straws so that you may save face. To bad your pathetic efforts only rise to the level of your history knowledge.
Whoops put in the wrong place. Doesn’t matter you get the message.
I am simply pointing out that you excuse the murder of US military veterans by white supremacist terrorists. That you can’t come to terms with what you have said is not my problem. That you make claims contradicted by the contents of this blog over the last several months suggests that at best you are ignorant, and that’s being kind.
I understand your outrage at having someone point out what you have said. However, you’ve said it.
No you are grasping at straws trying to make a point. Like the rest of the points you have tried to make you fail miserably. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel for hope. You know you cannot beat me on facts so you throw out the racism card. That is fine with me and it really doesn’t bother me. You see I know the racism of Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant. I posted references to these believes on this blog and you failed to RESPOND OR DENY this racism, instead you best option was to try and make me look like a racist. How juvenile.
If I said it copy and paste it here the exact wording. I want to see where I said anything about “white supremacist terrorists.” I have never at any time used those terms to describe the Yankee army or it’s hired German mercenaries.
I’ve discussed the racial attitudes of the people you’ve mentioned elsewhere. I can’t be held accountable for your limited knowledge in that regard, or in any other regard.
I don’t need to make you look like a racist. Your words speak for themselves.
Exactly there is no evidence he served but he did. As I said he has no enlistment papers, not on any muster roll, nothing only a grave in the Confederate section of Natchez cemetery. If I had said this was a black man you would be demanding all sorts of documentation and proof yet even though I have stated many time he served you failed to challenge the issue. It would appear you assign different standards on what you expect as proof for a Black man to have served and what you expect for what you assume to be a white man.
So you cannot find the exact words after your shot off your mouth. Finding something like that on this one page blog shouldn’t be that hard after it is not like searching for 150 year old documents.
You do understand that makes you a person who doesn’t tell the truth????
Well my limited knowledge still trumps you complete lack of knowledge.
Oh well call me a racist, anyone and everyone who has been in these sort of debates know that is the last straw a person who cannot present the facts. Do understand this I am reasserting blacks in the Confederacy, and you just assume I am white, you don’t know for sure yet you call me a racist.
Tell me what exactly do you have against being white?
“white supremacist terrorism”
You have offered no proof as to this person’s service. Race has nothing to do with it.
You seem upset. However, no one’s called you a racist. They can draw their own conclusions from what you have posted. Nor has anyone said anything about your own race. That’s because that’s irrelevant.
hey Brook, did you find anything on the CONFEDERATE SOLDIER Cornelius Oliver yet. There is no documentation. All evidence we have is a grave listing. Did he serve???
GP
There is no evidence, if we are to take you at your word, that he served as a soldier.
Exactly there is no evidence he served but he did. As I said he has no enlistment papers, not on any muster roll, nothing only a grave in the Confederate section of Natchez cemetery. If I had said this was a black man you would be demanding all sorts of documentation and proof yet even though I have stated many time he served you failed to challenge the issue. It would appear you assign different standards on what you expect as proof for a Black man to have served and what you expect for what you assume to be a white man.
“white supremacist terrorism.”
George, I’m afraid your word isn’t good enough, especially as you admit that you have no evidence of this person’s service.
Well until tomorrow. Right now I have to go list some Blacks who drew pensions from the state of Texas. While I am gone here is a little something for you to think about .
Order 11:
The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the department [the "Department of the Tennessee," an administrative district of the Union Army of occupation composed of Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi] within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order. Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and any one returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permit from headquarters. No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits.
“white supremacist terrorists” HHHHHHHUUUUUUMMMMMM
have a Dixie Day.
Having already written on Grant’s order banishing Jews from his department, I see no need to repeat myself. It was a stupid order, as even he admitted.
In contrast, Lee never apologized for kidnapping blacks, putting black POWs in harm’s way, etc., and I have yet to see Nathan Bedford Forrest express remorse for what his men did at Fort Pillow. But I’ve seen you defend white supremacist terrorism, the murder of US army veterans, and the slaughter of African Americans while complaining that highlighting your position makes you look like a racist.
Take care, George. It’s been quite a journey through your heart of darkness.
Still Grant wrote it, he served in the Union army and it is racist. Mighty good of you to let Grant off so easy on a written racist order, yet you want to hold the SCV accountable for a word YOU disagree with.
Who did Lee kidnap??? I got a good idea what you are gonna say already.
POWs sure you want to go there??? How about you pick up a copy an of “Immortal Captives” by Mauriel Phillips Joslyn and give it a read. I tell you what just forget what is written in the book by the author, just read the letters of men who experienced the horrors placed upon them by the Yankee army and sanctioned by Lincoln.
Forrest does not have to express remorse for his actions, Sherman cleared him of all doing!!!!!!!!!! Vets at Fort Pillow I thought they were all armed non citizen soldiers??????
What the hell is a African American???? I know it is not a race because there are many races in Africa.
Oh poor pitiful me, while everyone is looking let me play on some sympathetic heart strings and maybe just maybe old dark hearted George will see the righteous of the murdering Yankee army.
“white supremacist terrorism”
Apparently you need to read about the actions of Lee’s army during the Gettysburg campaign. Now, if you are somehow going to argue that Lee’s men disobeyed him and he had no control over his army, well, you have your own forum for that, although no one seems to visit you there.
Sherman did not clear Forrest for anything at Fort Pillow.
Now you admit you can’t identify African Americans, so that would render your entire quest for black Confederates moot, because you admit you don’t know who they are.
“Right now I have to go list some Blacks who drew pensions from the state of Texas.”
This statement reveals more than you know. Not, “I’m off to do more research on some of the African American men who later drew Confederate pensions in Texas,” or “I’m working to correlate the names on Texas pension rolls with other historical documentation to clarify what their actual wartime role was,” but rather just making a “list” of “some Blacks.”
That’s all these men are to you, I fear: names on a list, about whom you’ll know next to nothing, and won’t bother looking further — because having a names on a list is all you’re especially interested in. As with Thomas Tobe in South Carolina, all that matters is that you can chalk up another name as a “black Confederate,” and to hell with what the historical record, in all its complex and ambiguous entirety, actually shows.
And yes, that’s my opinion.
George reveals here his approach to conducting research.
Given his confession that he did not know how the Confederacy defined soldier status, he calls into question his own meager findings. Note that he did not highlight them here.
You are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it is.
Glenn Beck has a book with a title that applies to “arguing” with George. Sorry to be so blunt, but I don’t have the patience or kindness that some of you do.
You don’t like it tough– get your panties in a wad tough.
If it was for andy hall covering your buut you would be lost. That isa matter of historical record as presented by this board.
“white supremacist terrorism”
Sherman (Order #11) “There is a class of people (in the South), men women and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order.”
Includes Blacks, Indians, Jews, or any other race living in the South
“white supremacist terrorism”
First, George, Sherman did not issue that order.
Second, it’s clear you don’t understand what Sherman was saying, because he wasn’t talking about all southerners.
Thanks for sharing.
Sometimes George Purvis can’t get anything right.
Here’s what he posted on his forum (which doesn’t tend to attract responses, and, looking at the links clicked on here, most of the traffic he’s gotten comes from curious onlookers here):
“He even to me that when Sherman said “”There is a class of people (in the South), men, women and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order.” While telling me out of one side of his mouth Sherman did not issue that order, out of the other side of his mouth, he is telling me that Sherman did not mean all Southerners!!!”
Sherman did not issue a General Order No. 11 that said this. The quote (which appears all over pro-Confederate websites) is from a June 1864 letter. The letter makes clear he’s not talking about all southerners.
Now, some pro-CSA websites got this quote tangled with General Orders No. 11, and George, who is rather careless in his use of information, simply stripped it from one of those websites.
Her’s the letter:
Hdqrs. Military Division Of The Mississippi,
In the Field, Big Shanty, Ga., June 21, 1864.
Hon. E. M. Stanton,
Secretary of War, Washington, D. C.
Sir: I inclose you herewith copy of a letter this day addressed to General Burbridge, who commands the District of Kentucky, and I have furnished a copy to all department commanders subject to my orders. I doubt whether the President will sustain me, but if he don’t interfere is all I ask. I can get the malcontents on board ships at sea without traveling outside of my authority, but then the jurisdiction becomes doubtful. We will never have peace as long as we tolerate in our midst the class of men that we all know to be conspiring against the peace of the State, and yet who if tried by jury could not be convicted. Our civil powers at the South are ridiculously impotent, and it is as a ship sailing through sea—our armies traverse the land, and the waves of disaffection, sedition, and crime close in behind, and our track disappears. We must make a beginning, and I am willing to try it, but to be effectual it should be universal. The great difficulty will be in selecting a place for the malcontents. Honduras, British or French Guiana, or San Domingo would be the best countries, but these might object to receive such a mass of restless democrats. Madagascar or Lower California would do. lint one thing is certain, there is a class of people, men, women, and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order, even as far south as Tennessee. I would like to have your assent and to name the land to which I may send a few cargoes, but if you will not venture, but leave me to order, I will find some island where they will be safe as against the district of my command. It has now been raining nineteen days constantly, and taking the Flood as the only example in history, the rain squall is nearly half over. Fortunately we are at the apex of Georgia, which may prove the Ararat of our ark of safety against the flood.
I am, with respect, your obedient servant,
W. T. SHERMAN,
Major- General, Commanding.
(This is from the OR, 1/39/2/131-32; see Lloyd Lewis, Sherman: Fighting Prophet [1932], pp. 396-97, for context).
So it’s evident that George Purvis simply strips his “research” from like-minded websites (without attribution), mistakes and all. Reader beware.
And it’s evident that he probably *still* doesn’t understand what you’re saying. You’ve made it clear that G.O. 11 is not what he quoted. What he quoted was a letter from Sherman, not G.O.11. G.O. 11 is a completely different document. I bet he still doesn’t understand this.
You’ve also made it clear that Sherman wasn’t talking about all southerners. He was talking about some civilians in Kentucky who were bushwacking Federal soldiers and firing at passing trains. Since Kentucky was a loyal state, these were simply terrorists. Of course, George has already shown that he fully supports terrorism and terrorists. But I bet he still doesn’t understand this either.
Al, if you look elsewhere in the thread, you’ll notice that George trumpets his discovery of an entry in the NPS Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System — a “yankee website,” as he says — of an entry for Henry Major. George doesn’t recognize that this database entry is simply a reference to the same microfilmed Combined Service Record already discussed. He doesn’t understand the sources he cites.
It’s clear that George Purvis’s research methods reflect the quality of his intellect. We’ve already revealed evidence that he does not understand the sources he cites, and that in fact much of his “research” is uncritically ripped from like-minded internet sites.
Good to see you back Andy. Got help now you got a backbone eh????
Al, if you look elsewhere on this page you will find that Andy could not find this reference. he states major was not on any roll or noted anyplace on a couple of cards. It is plain Andy does not understand what he is reading. Andy hall and Brook Simpson are the only two people I have ever heard of who have researched every muster roll of every Confederate unit, but still Cannot find anything on Cornelius Oliver.
Gee they even sit at the right hand of God and are allowed to define anything as they like it. In fact the foundation of the Houses of the Holy rests on the back of Andy and Brook.
Actually, George, you are the person obsessed about Cornelius Oliver, and you’ve admitted you can find no evidence of his service. You just ask us to take your word for it.
Good luck with that.
Maybe but if you knew as much as you pretend to know, and if your research skills were as sharp as you think they are you could surely find something.
You see I know about Cornelius he is my great – grandfather. The point is and I told you this already , there is no documentation for Cornelius Oliver in any records except a grave listing. Many blacks that you dispute service in the CSA, have more documentation that Cornelius Oliver, yet you dispute their service. I think you are more than likely biased against the black man. yeah that is what it has got to be— nothing else.
Actually, George, no one but you has said a word about Cornelius Oliver’s race. You are the only person speculating about his race. That’s your business.
To repeat, you admit you have no documentation of his service as a soldier. That he’s in your family tree doesn’t change that fact. Nor does it matter how you define his racial heritage, although you seem interested in discussing it. My response is that’s a private matter for you to research.
Have a good day, George, as you ponder the real nature of your family’s Confederate past.
I didn’t say anything about his race. I simply said you assumed he was white, Inever said one way or the other. I did say you assign different standards for a black man than you do someone you assume is white. In other words you put extra effort into proving a black man did not serve. I told you there is no documentation on Oliver that YOU cannot find, not that was was no documentation at all.
In short, your reserach skills are no better than mine. We cannot expect to know everything nor should we expect someone else you included to know all about the WBTS.
Just admit you cannot find anything and I’ll drop the subject
Have a Dixie Day.
You’re confused again, George. So now you say you haven’t said anything about the race of your great-grandfather? Are you unsure?
You’ve repeatedly stated that you have no documentation of his service. I take you at your word, so no need for me to lift a finger. If you want to research your family history, perhaps you should join ancestry.com. Absent that evidence, you have no proof that he did serve as a soldier, regardless of his race. You’ve admitted as much. The remainder of your post reflects a great deal of confusion and poor logic on your part.
You are the person who seems race-conscious, George. Given your own confusion about your own family’s history, perhaps that is understandable. There are currently TV shows out there that might welcome hearing your story. Best of luck with that.
So Al you also support the murdering , raping and thievery practiced by the Yankee army? You call the men in Ky. terrorist, isn’t that the same thing as a Yankee in Virginia or Georgia??
Oh I could call names but I refuse to lower myself to the level of Brook.
I see nothing in Al’s post that gives cause for your outburst. Back to the spam category, George. Have a Dixie Cup Day.
“you also support the murdering , raping and thievery practiced by the Yankee army?”
————
I support neither murder, nor rape, nor theft. I point out to you that where soldiers were convicted of such offenses they were duly punished. You obviously didn’t know that. Glad I could help expand your knowledge.
“You call the men in Ky. terrorist, isn’t that the same thing as a Yankee in Virginia or Georgia??”
—————
A soldier fighting a war is not a terrorist. A civilian who is not part of an army, who is operating in an area that is not under dispute, and who murders soldiers is a terrorist. Glad I could help you clear away that ignorance on your part as well.
Enjoy your day in the United States of America, the greatest country in the world.
So where does he omit one southerner, there is still a “class”.
You prove that you support total war against old men women and children. Sherman, Lincoln, Grant and the all the rest are nothing more than common war criminals.
Let’s see … George Purvis is having a bad day.
First, he now finds out that when his “research” and “evidence” comes under scrutiny, it doesn’t stand up.
Then he says that to show that reveals that someone supports total war. Right, George. That’s about as sad a leap of logic as is your original interpretation of the document. Why can’t you simply admit that you offered a quote stripped from the internet without understanding anything about it (example: it’s not a general order)?
In your refusal to admit ignorance, dishonesty, and stupidity, you leave open the explanation that you deliberately twisted a historical source, placing your integrity in jeopardy.
I think Sherman’s proposal out of bounds (due, as usual, to his inflated rhetoric), but it had one underlying truth: it would be hard to pacify the South so long as certain extremists were allowed to continue to resist United States authority. It’s the same argument used in debates about terrorism (and encounters the same problems); however, as George supports white supremacist terrorism and resistance to the authority of the United States government, I can see why he feels the way he does. My only question is why he is afraid to act upon those beliefs by renouncing his US citizenship.
“So where does he omit one southerner, there is still a ‘class’”.
—————
You obviously have trouble interpreting a letter written in English. Let me see if I can help you.
In Sherman’s letter to Stanton (note, this is not G.O. 11 as you thought. G.O. 11 wasn’t even written by Sherman, as Brooks told you), he says,
“Sir: I inclose you herewith copy of a letter this day addressed to General Burbridge, who commands the District of Kentucky, and I have furnished a copy to all department commanders subject to my orders.”
So he’s talking about what was happening in Kentucky, not anywhere else. You should look into what Burbridge wrote in his letter to Sherman and what Sherman wrote in his response to Burbridge he referenced at the beginning of his letter to Stanton.
Show you at least have the ability to find them.
“We will never have peace as long as we tolerate in our midst the class of men that we all know to be conspiring against the peace of the State, and yet who if tried by jury could not be convicted.”
So he’s not talking here about all southerners, merely the class of men who are conspiring against the peace in Kentucky.
“one thing is certain, there is a class of people, men, women, and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order, even as far south as Tennessee.”
Not all southerners, but only a class of southerners, and not in every state, but in Kentucky, and “even as far south as Tennessee.” He’s not referring to anyone south of Tennessee, and he’s only referring to a single class of southerners. To see who he’s referring to, you have to look at the context of his letter, which means you have to see what Burbridge wrote and what he replied to Burbridge.
So either you can find those two letters or you can admit you don’t have the intellectual chops to do so.
By the way, Brooks has already done you a great kindness by pointing you to another place where you can find the context:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MtQwfz8uFfgC&pg=PA396&dq=Sherman+Fighting+Prophet+Burbridge&hl=en&ei=NlmiTfanN4fVgAfNmKTaBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Have a great day in the United States of America, the greatest country in the world.
“Apparently you see the slaughter of US veterans at Memphis in 1866 or the killing of a hundred blacks at Colfax, Louisiana, in 1873 as Confederate soldiers defending their homes.”
I’m glad my ancestors in the 2nd TN Infantry USA and later as members of the Tennessee State Guard fought against this. No doubt they were prejudiced but they were willing to die so that men different from themselves could vote and live in peace.
Thank you for putting your knowledge of the conflict on display. The last thing they did was fight to free the slaves.
Happy Appomattox Day, George. You may have felt that you lost 146 years ago, but most Americans believed they won, at the time or in the long run … regardless of the uniform they wore or the side they chose.
LOL, Happy Appomattox day to you Mr. Simpson. What a pity the war didn’t really end on that day. Groups like the KKK would keep it alive for several more years.
Note to George. In talking about giving their lives for men to vote, I was speaking of the Tennessee State Guard. They were organized after the war. Thanks for putting your display of knowledge out there.
George is like that.
Yes, it’s one of the misconceptions of Appomattox that the war ended that day, either technically or in terms of the larger issues that still had to be worked out … some of which were not resolved for a century, and others that still linger.
What interests me is that southern whites who claim to model themselves after Robert E. Lee (at least as they understand him) don’t follow their own advice when it comes to the issue of how to behave once you’ve lost (as if they themselves lost in any case). Of course, in truth Lee may not have been quite so placid and accepting as the myth would have you believe.
HOOOOO HUMMMM at least I do not attack a group or a person over something so minor as a word. I also do not pretend to know something and then someone else to cover my butt!!!!!!!!
Oh by the way you may want to start visiting the SHAPE website more often, you see I am going to address some of these points that have been made here and I KNOW they will get posted there!!!!
Brook you are more than welcome but leave your attitude , smart mouth, and snide remarks here, I simply will not put up with that sort of thing on the SHAPE forums.
Our link again is —http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
PS
James you or anyone else is more welcome to bring your facts and engage in a civil debate.
If you visit George’s forum, you’ll see that people rarely comment there, and that for the most part George is left talking to himself.
“leave your attitude , smart mouth, and snide remarks here, I simply will not put up with that sort of thing on the SHAPE forums.”
In other words, George insists on having his posts here left untouched, but he won’t extend the same courtesy to others who post on his forum. Henceforth I’ll simply apply George’s own criteria for posting to his posts here, which will allow me to discharge a great deal of material.
Thanks, George. Have a happy Appomattox Day.
That may be true but all you gotta do is look at the number of hits to track the visits.. One reason forums like SHAPE do not get a lot of hits we do not post BS like what is found on most of these Yankee blogs.
You are right about the posts, when I came here you were already talking to people in an insulting and demeaning manner. I just fell into the groove you might say. I tried to bring you to facts even gave you examples such as Cornelius Oliver, but the best you as a historian could do was post snide biased remarks.
Past a something factual on the SHAPE website and it stays, even if I ban you for your comments. What I do is left solely up to me. You may not have noticed but if a post is edited on the SHAPE forum, it is time stamped. The only way around that feature is to delete the post.
Understand this I neither need you or your blog. I have made my references with links on the SHAPE forum and will work from there.
Have a Dixie day.
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
“Understand this I neither need you or your blog. I have made my references with links on the SHAPE forum and will work from there.”
I’ll take that as your farewell statement, George. Anyone wishing to see what George thinks can henceforth view his forum, where he does nearly all of the posting.
Happy Appomattox Day, George. Farewell.
James,
Speaking of ” keeping it alive” I do believe that Simpson made this blog. Correct?? Had it not been for him there would be no discussion on this subject right??? Note the subject of the blog, something Brook is not even a member of nor trying to get in. So now tell me who is keeping it alive?
Now the KKK can you tell me where they national headquarters is located?? I don’t know but I am almost sure it I is not in an ex-Confederate state. Tell me just why do you feel like this is nothing but a Southern group?
Note to James —– so???? Why should I be interested in a State militia unit??? Gee think of the folks who can brag about their kin was with the Ohio guard at Kent state.
It appears that George confuses a post with an entire blog. In fact, his entire comment seems a bit confused.
Somehow confusing the students at Kent State with the white supremacist terrorists of Reconstruction is par for George’s course. Of course, the KKK did its share of cold-blooded murdering, but George thinks that was okay.
Fortunately George is representative of a simple fringe extremist element in American society, and so long as his attitudes are confined to occasional internet rants, his ability to inflict damage is rather small. But it is useful to remember that nearly a century and a half after the Civil War, some people believe as George does.
Happy Appomattox Day, George. Good luck with your efforts to get visitors to frequent your website.
Nope I got it straight, it appears you confuse a website with a forum.
Ah there you go with the racist remarks again. Gotta love a historian who can stick to the facts. let’s see wasn’t this little incident under the US flag? Kent state, National Guard, US flag, heck how about Waco. I am sure those little kids were quite dangerous.
Unfortunately you are part of a group of liberal professors who claim they are trained historians, yet at the drop of a hat feel the need to insult. Folks like you have found a NEW fact in 200 years. Oh wait a minute I forgot you are with an elite group that make define anything you want in a manner that suits your. Not only that but Andy hall did pull your butt out of the fire defining Confederate soldier. Gee your ability to allow history to speak for itself is nil most people take you as nothing more than a bad joke.
Don’t need luck, see the truth is history is kinda boring, people had much rather visit places that are promoting lies just to see hat sort of argument comes up. Sound familiar?????
Have a Happy Confederate History Month.
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
You do realize, George, that as written your post makes little sense.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say by drawing what seems to you to be a connection between Waco and the events of Reconstruction. I just treat your post as an example of your intellect at work, and marvel at the result.
In any case, as you’ve promised, you’ll henceforth stay on your forum, where you will allow what with which you agree and edit out or omit anything you don’t like. I’m sure that will make your forum a lively place for free and open discussion.
Take care, George. Good bye. Oh … and have a happy Appomattox Day. Now take your mule and do some spring plowing.
Fighting the KKK to secure the voting franchise can hardly be compared to firing on student protests. I don’t think any of those students had been out burning homes and lynching people. Wherever the Klan Headquarters may be now . In 1867 it’s power was in the South. Along with other groups with the same objective. Different name, same game.
Right the students were much more dangerous, unarmed, chanting, burning draft cards.
Hows about giving me a date and plplace so I know what you are talking about????
I’m speaking of the Klu Klux Klan. It was quite active in Tennessee from 1865 to 1877. It was organized in Pulaski Tn. Giles County. One of the organizations used to suppress it was the TN State Guard. George Kirk was a leader of the State Guard.