Poster Jefferson Moon would like to have more discussion about the American Civil War. Fair enough … but I’d say that heritage debates, even if one sees them as a rearguard action, are one (just one, and not a big one) of the reasons to ask whether the American Civil War is in truth over. After all, it was Reconstruction, not simply Appomattox, that defined much of what the war achieved and did not achieve. That process defined the price of reunion as the sacrifice of meaningful equality for many African Americans and left emancipation an unfinished revolution.
In light of today’s political debates, one can ask what the war really settled. Yes, it stopped a move for southern independence, and it did destroy slavery, neither of which is to be minimized. But what else did it settle and what else did it achieve? It might well have set the United States firmly on the road to industrial development, although economic historians disagree about that; the absence of southerners from Congress certainly facilitated the process of establishing the nation-state’s support for that evolution. But issues of federal power, federalism, and justice for all Americans remain high on today’s political agenda as sources of debate.
What say you?
Crossroads 
Maybe one should asked what the Civil War didn’t settle…
You disappoint me, Moon. First you tell me what to write, then you grow critical when I follow your hint. Get with the program.
I didn’t tell you to do anything.When your always at war professor one tends to always be on the defence.really wasn’t what I had in mind anyways, more of the same…
Take care, unhappy camper. Say hi to Helga.
Left civilwarhistory2 , It’s dying out from inbreeding, IMO…
It’s not inbreeding unless by “inbreeding” you mean that we don’t have the old knock-down drag-out fights we used to have. There’s a lack of participation on most Yahoo CW groups. The “new and improved” format certainly has something to do with it. Lee & Jackson will fold its tents on January 1, Study of the Civil War, which was once one of the most active and scholarly Yahoo groups, has all but died and civilwarhistory2 is on life support. I blame it more on (1) a lack of interest (no new members) and (2) the fact that we have discussed the same topics over and over and over and over for the past 25 years going back to the old alt.war.civil.usa in the early 90s. Even our new Facebook group Civil War History 2 is not doing very well..
When CW groups become homogenized (everybody agrees with everybody else), there just ain’t much to talk about any more. While I decry the vitriolic comments and outright hatred on such as Fields of Conflict, it was just that dissension that kept the groups going. And when pro-Southern writers do jump in on groups nowadays, they generally get lambasted. I’m sure you remember, Brooks, when you ripped me a new one after I wrote that had I been an ex-Confederate in 1867 I would have joined the KKK, too. BTW, I haven’t changed my opinion on that. So, after a while, dissenting writers just quit.
And one final thought. Public high schools by and large no longer teach the Civil War. U.S. History starts with the end of WWII. Why? Because there are no questions about the CW on the state achievement tests. State Boards of Education have decided that the CW is just not that important in the 21st century. Go to your local HS (as I have done) and do a random survey in the hallway. “Who was Robert E. Lee?” “Who was U.S. Grant?” “Where was the Battle of Gettysburg fought?” “What were the causes of the Civil War (why did we fight).” You’ll get blank stares from kids who could care less.
FWIW, Moon, we miss you on civilwarhistory2. It was fun arguing with you. Not so much fun any more.
High Schools, in Massachusetts anyway, teach the Civil War. I’ve taught it every year for the last 13 years at my school. There are civil war question on the state exams.
Good for you guys. Wish that was still the case here in Michigan.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I don’t equate being pro-Southern with being pro-Confederate or pro-KKK. I’ll add that if you think I should let through all the racist and derogatory posts I get, you should think again. If that means that dissenting voices go away, that’s their choice.I notice that they (and you) still read the blog, and the fact that you still can’t tell the difference between a blog and a discussion group is something I recognize.
One of the things I enjoy most is posting dissenting voices who declare I don’t post dissenting voices, including yours.
You are always free to establish and manage your own forum, Bob, instead of complaining about everyone else because they don’t live up to your expectations or fulfill your needs. Lately, however, you’ve been more interest in closing down groups and bemoaning the situation. Try to be the change you claim you want to see.
Actually, some of us did that on Facebook — Civil War History 2. It was very active for a while, now not so much. As for L & J, Pete and I don’t know what else to try with a group that has only had a half dozen posts (not counting mine) in the past six months. And you’re correct. I guess I really don’t know the difference between a blog and a discussion group except that on a blog one owner/moderator leads the discussion and poses questions. And of course blogs are 100% moderated. Should you allow racist and derogatory posts? No, else this will wind up as another Fields of Conflict. My only point is that when there are no dissenting voices, there’s not much to talk about except to agree with each other, which IMO limits the discussion.
I get a lot of comments from some people who either thank me for all the dissenting voices or who are critical that I allow certain dissenting voices to post. So I’ve learned that when it comes to blogging, you can’t please everyone.
Having moderated a discussion group and having blogged, I can assure you that there are plenty of differences, one being audience, with another being essays/posts.
“Public high schools by and large no longer teach the Civil War. U.S. History starts with the end of WWII. Why? Because there are no questions about the CW on the state achievement tests. State Boards of Education have decided that the CW is just not that important in the 21st century.”
Funny if true. When I was in middle and high school we covered US history twice (8th grade and 11th grade) and in neither case do I think we made it far past World War 2 before running out of time when the semester/year ended. Ditto US History at community college.
I think most Americans understand how we got from 1945 to 2013 even less well than they understand the American Civil War.
The history you know least well is often the history of your parents’ times.
I love how you neo-cons have to make everything a ‘left’ vs. ‘right’ issue. What does that even mean. I guess I’ll take it as your kind won’t be left much longer as the world is evolving around you. Ha! All you’re doing us following in the footsteps of your ancestors lost cause = an ignorant and extinct way of thinking. It’s 2013, get with the program son!
Who was it who said if you repeat a lie often enough it will become ” truth”. I think that is a prime operative principle of propaganda ministries. It is also one the Neo-confederate, lost cause, save our heritage people are using…… Hardly a Civil War page on FB where it doesn’t show up. I actually left one CW FB page when it was over ran by the Neo-confederate propaganda machine….. And woe to the “ignorant fool” who doesn’t kowtow to he received party line….. No, the War to Suppress the Rebellion is over in terms of military conflict, but the war for the mind and how that conflict will be remembered has never ceased.
I would say the war part is over. Many of the ideas that caused it, not to mention its legacy, are not, however. They will probably never be extinct. The ideas will simply adapt to the times without conceding their basic principles, and/or be held by a smaller minority or a greater majority. As for the legacy controversy, the Lost Cause’s disciples may dwindle, but it will, alas, never die.
Actually, if the persistence of ideals or the endurance of legacies mean that the American Civil War isn’t really over, then no war is so. These issues apply to all wars. Look at the Crusades. Look at the Great War, especially the Armenian Genocide. Look at the Second World War, particularly the Japanese memory of it. The American Civil War is hardly unique.
To quote Shelby Foote, it made “us” an “is.” No state or states nowadays could even contemplate seceding from the United States. They couldn’t afford it. Who would repair their interstate highways, build bridges, support their public schools or subsidize their farmers? FWIW, I actually called him about twenty years ago. Looked up his number in information and dialed him. He answered the phone. After some stumbled comments about how much I enjoyed his interviews on the Ken Burns’ series and his trilogy, he said “Thank You” and we hung up. As to your question “Is the Civil War really over?” the answer is “Yes.” It ended in the 1960s when Civil Rights legislation finally gave the right to vote and participate in the democratic process to blacks. Perhaps one of the reasons it’s no longer taught in our public schools.
“No state or states nowadays could even contemplate seceding from the United States. They couldn’t afford it.”
According to one of my college professors that was precisely what Alexander Hamilton was trying to create in the first place.
Yes, the military conflict is over (let’s hope) but it is pretty obvious that are still many fundamental differences between the South and other regions of the country. All a person has to do is look at the last several general elections for proof. The South is the heart of the bible belt. The South is conservative, more so than other areas of the country. Let’s forget about slavery for a moment, look at all the other issues that the South and many other regions are at odds about. Most southerners are pro-life, most southerners are against gay marriage, most southerners are against gun control and most southerners are for limited government. Yes, we’re not killing each other like we once were, but sometimes I wonder if it’s really over with or if there’s just been a truce in place for the last 148 years!
I’m not sure if that’s entirely true–much of the Midwest is as conservative as the South. Indiana voted for Bush in 2004, while North Carolina went Democrat. I have friends in Indiana who are indistinguishable from the most conservative Southerners on all the issues you mention, and nowhere would you find a more religious family than my grandmother’s in upstate New York. I agree with you that the Deep South (except for much of Florida) is consistently conservative, though, just as New England is consistently liberal. I do get the feeling though, that Right and Left are becoming increasingly less defined by the border between North and South.
While the American Civil War obviously exposed significant cracks in the nation’s foundation, I also think that it’s fair to say these fault lines run from 1861 all the way back to 1776 as well as all the way forward to the present day. While specific issues arise, evolve and may even disappear over time, the question of identity and what it means to be an American seems to remain unresolved for many people. Religion, race, class, economics and geography continue to feed into very different beliefs regarding the American identity. While it’s true that after 237 years of shared history one can find many Americans who share something approaching a common outlook regarding these questions, there are obviously many other Americans who do not. For example, one just has to consider the underlying motivations of the Flaggers and other “heritage” groups in their attempts to yet again rehabilitate the “Lost Cause” to understand that the American identity has a very different meaning for these individuals as opposed to those Americans who understand that the defeat of the Confederacy (and slavery) was necessary for the progress of their nation.
I’m reading a book called ‘Tomatoland’ about how slavery still exists in the tomato fields of South Florida.
Well, Brad, if the blight of undocumented labor is really a concern of yours then you can lend us a hand in helping to unionize them which will give them a better worker’s status and give them more suitable rights….
I see the Civil War as an American war of unification—politically, anyway. Sectional hostility was still there after Reconstruction, but it wasn’t anything like what it had been in the decades leading up to the war. As you said, Brooks, the threat of secession and the divisive effects of slavery on American expansion were no longer there.
On the economic front, the war caused North and South to enter the modern industrial age decades sooner than they otherwise would have. Mechanization on the farms by the 1890s had depressed cotton prices to less than half of what they were in 1860, so the Southern plantation system based on slavery was bound to collapse eventually if the war hadn’t already destroyed it. A textile industry sprang up in the South during the war, out of necessity, and continued to grow afterwards. That would not have happened had the Southern planter aristocracy stayed in power. Overall though, the war wrecked the South, of course. Mississippi went from being one of the wealthiest states to one of the poorest almost overnight. Charleston, SC’s economy didn’t reach its 1860 level until the eve of World War II.
I think the Civil War caused a disrupton of sorts in western expansion as well, at least for the South. While the troops were away fighting the war, the American Indians were given the opportunity to push back the Texas border, which they did with some success.
I am one of the Confederates who once posted here. I stopped when my post were edited, ignored, and ridiculed to make me look like an idiot. Why waste my time in a ONE WAY discussion? I think you Yanks are afraid of finding the truth about your Messianic Savior Abraham Lincoln.
And most Yankee discussions I read don’t allow politics to enter the discussion at their own peril. Modern day political issues are issues today because they were not settled at Appomattox. The political issues of yesteryear are alive and well today, and built directly into ANY Civil War discussion that wants to remain viable. Ninety nine percent of the political issues that caused the war are alive and well today.
John Randolph, I’m surprised at your comment. You say the “defeat of the Confederacy (and slavery) was necessary for the progress of their nation.” I think you have a warped sense of “progress.”
How’s that Obamacare thing working out for you? Maybe you are fortunate and didn’t lose your insurance that Obama promised you could keep? Maybe you didn’t lose your doctor that Obama promised you could keep? Maybe you like having a president who dictates and changes laws at will? I prefer Congress (government by the people) making our laws.
How’s that Federal Reserve and hyper inflation and centralized banking system that steals your property at will thing working out for you?
How’s the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam working out for you. Please read Robert McNamara’s book, “In Retrospect, The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam,” if you are one of those “low information voters” I hear so much about. Someday a book will be written with a similar title about Iraq and Afghanistan.
“Progress of their nation” indeed? Maybe you don’t really understand what Lincoln’s War accomplished for the thieves in big government and big banks?
I do not edit posts. I interpret your credibility accordingly. A review of your past posts shows that you insulted people, claimed you were being blocked (in posts that came through and were posted), and that you threw tantrums when people didn’t agree with you and ignored you because of your behavior.
So we see you haven’t changed. Thanks for reading. You’ve shared your opinion, and now we’ll move on from your tirade about present politics. You should seek another forum to air those grievances. Maybe Bob Nelson can help you out. He pointed to a group that’s looking for discussants.
Note: An abusive reader complains that I edit posts because I do not post his rants. That’s not editing a post. It’s declining to post it. Too bad he doesn’t understand the difference, just like he doesn’t understand the First Amendment. What folks forget is that if they want to be heard, they can always start their own blog and become another Connie Chastain. That doesn’t take a lot of ability, so this particular individual might just be up to that challenge.
Thanks for the plug. Just wish I had a “hot” group to recommend. LOL Other than this one and Al’s blog, none seem to be very active, which is a shame.
This isn’t a group. It’s a blog. I spend more time on my blog for many reasons, and that, plus work time, takes away time I would normally have spent in a discussion group. Discussion groups served a great purpose once, and they still have their place, but the growth of blogs and other forms of social media is pushing them aside. I can find a lot more quality history reading Brooks, Kevin, Andy Hall, Keith Harris, and a few others than I can find when some neconfederate type posts his hallucinations about US Grant having slaves in the White House. There are still places to go to find that stuff, but these days I’m more interested in using that to illustrate the historical shortcomings of neoconfederate types. Also, Twitter and Facebook give us access to some great history resources because a number of professional historians are exploring the uses of social media. Why waste time trying to convince a neoconfederate who isn’t willing to be convinced when instead I can actually learn things?
Bob has spent a lot of time on multiple discussion groups and on this blog offering his reflections on the dynamics of discussion groups, their rise and fall, and so on. This is one of his favorite themes (another being the state of public education). I strongly suggest that he start his own blog to explore these issues at his leisure and with the attention he believes they deserve. I am tired of his crankiness and his assumptions about what’s going on, and this has happened before.
I’ve shown you a lot of patience, Bob. You’ve become a broken record. Either contribute to discussions about the Civil War here or take the show elsewhere. You can find what you want in several places, including Civil War Talk. I’ve indulged you long enough, and that’s it. Thank you.
Thanks. Have never heard of Civil War Talk. I’ll check it out.
I agree with you, Al, about the wealth of information that comes from the blogs you listed under those circumstances. It is interesting how so many different facts are presented to counter the crap from the neo-confederates. Each time something new is presented which furthers our knowledge of the past. What the neo-confederates fail to notice is that they are presenting the same thing over and over again. They may try to change it around, but it is still the same points over and over.
Let’s face it, the Lost Cause handbook is pretty thin, short of factual support, and unable to sustain any discussion on the actual Civil War. Most neo-confederates are also only interested in the past to give their modern ideology some validity no matter how incorrect they are in their understanding of the past.
It’s ironic that a supporter of the Confederacy would criticize the U.S. for hyperinflation, given that the Confederates managed to create an inflation rate of over 1000% by the end of the war–which remains the record for the Western hemisphere. They’re still the best example of the folly of printing the heck out of paper money unbacked by specie.
Can you give us some examples of the 99% of political issues that weren’t settled by the war? Given the actions of the Confederate government during the war, I fail to see how history under them would have played out much differently. Their government took over private railroad companies, nationalized war-related industries, instituted price controls, confiscated farm produce, and declared martial law in Richmond and a number of other cities. The Union never resorted to measures like these. Jefferson Davis acknowledged the fact that the kind of government Southerners wanted wasn’t the kind that could win a war like this one.
Lets also not forget that the CSA started conscription before the USA (about a year sooner, IIRC).
You’re surprised at my comment? Surprised? Really? The notion that the defeat of the Confederacy was necessary and good is actually held by many people and for good reasons. Slavery is a bad idea and it’s time had long passed by 1861. That most people believe this cannot really be that surprising unless one is determined to live in a self-sealing bubble. Furthermore, I would point out that anyone who believes the victory in 1865 of an oligarchical agrarian society which fiercely defended the idea that human beings could be bought and sold back would somehow have produced a more just and fair society in 2013 than currently exists is not only living in a bubble, but also dreaming in Technicolor.
You said “I stopped when my post were edited, ignored, and ridiculed to make me look like an idiot” No need to edit anything IMO as you appear to do that well enough on your own. Do you REALLY believe what you wrote, or are you showing off? I only ask because your statements are so out of whack with reality – there has to be another motive behind them. The fact that you self-identify yourself as a Confederate is an insult to the real Confederates who fought and died regardless if their ’cause’ was ill conceived. Not only do you sound like a nutcase, you have insulted your own ancestors. Well done. 🙂
Not only did I not edit Terry’s posts, but I found no need to edit them. I could not have improved upon how he presented himself. His gift of transparent self-expression rivals that of Connie Chastain.
I’m not an historian, but the Civil War is very much over – except for those minority groups who are stuck in that era for their own peculiar reasons. Unfortunately (and fortunately) this past year has exposed me to these select groups of delusional people who hate their own country and believe that they are still at war.
It may well be that internet groups air the opinions of the involved, the extreme, and the fringe disproportionately.
On the original question: I work exclusively in immigrant communities. Until 2006 none of the organizations I worked with, over 200 in all, ever brought up the Civil War to me. If I mentioned it, it was seen simply as a field of historical curiosity. Friens saw my own interest in it as “a white guy thing.”
From 2007 through 2013, many immigrant leaders have observed to me that the heart of the most virulent anti-immigrant racism has been in “the Old Confederacy and Arizona” as several have framed it. I don’t think this means that the war is not over, but perhaps a residual confederacy of dunces still remains.
Is the influence of the English Civil war on the United States over?
Who are today’s Roundheads and Cavaliers?
The list of haters in the eyes of the extreme hater’s crowd is growing. Some haters belong to more than one group. Most on the Left hate southern heritage, so I would classify the Left and Lincoln lovers in the same group.
One can now be hounded, punished, and censored for merely having the audacity of believing in traditional morals, values and a healthy dose of Southern Heritage. And for daring to express them. Political correctness is a tool of tyranny wielded by the radicalism of the above mentioned hate groups with increasing ferocity. The persecution of those who dare to express their views on the Confederacy continues to expand and grow every day and those who dare to proclaim a southern heritage can expect no mercy. The Lincoln lovers have absolutely no tolerance for any ideas other than their own. All else is branded incendiary bigotry, intolerance, and hatred. It has become fashionable to persecute traditional values, but if you dare offend Lincoln lovers, gays, lesbians, or Muslims for that matter, you’re going to be intimidated, silenced, and labeled as a hater.
The followers of the new religious creed of ‘tolerance, multiculturalism, diversity, and political correctness’ are among the most intolerant of people. No one is allowed to disagree with them in a public forum or manner without being blasted, mocked, and shut down with extreme prejudice. All the power available to our fascist friends in the Lincoln lover’s crowd is brought to bear against those so foolish as to dare to utter a word contrary to their official creed.
Therefore, there can be no tolerance for truth. It must be silenced no matter what. The champions of diversity stop at diversity of thought and in reality become mere thought-police using the levers of power to create a chilling effect on all those who don’t agree with their agenda.
Shortly, as predicted, after my post espousing the truth about the tyrant Abraham Lincoln and your subsequent attack upon my words, this thread shut down. Keep up the good work Simpson. You are your own worst enemy.
Enjoy the holidays.
There is no tolerance for what is not the truth. Southern Heritage espoused by you, the Flaggers, and anyone else who embraces the Lost Cause is nothing more than a giant lie. You have the right to speak whatever you want, but when you lie you will be called out for it.
The problem is you are a hater. The speech used by the rightwing extremists is built upon a foundation of hate, exclusion, and a lack of tolerance. If you want to believe in what you call traditional values, go ahead. This world is moving to inclusion and leaving the racists, bigots, exclusionists, and extremists behind in the trashpile of history.
Terry, Seriously? This is a joke right? People don’t think or talk like that anymore in this century. It’s 2013 – soon to be 2014 hon. Get out of your mamma’s basement, pull aside that ugly Reb flag you use as a drape and get yourself some sunshine. Your people were intolerant domestic terrorists and they lost. Lincoln is considered one of the greatest presidents ever in the annals of history. The Union was saved. Time to get over it. There’s a whole beautiful country out there progressing forward for everyone regardless of their preferences and beliefs. Join us. Come out of your closet. We’re Christians who actually follow the teachings of Jesus to LOVE everybody, but your type makes it hard when your hold on to your granddaddy’s hate.
Terry, I also wanted to respond to your questions as a courtesy…
“How’s that Obamacare thing working out for you?”
Pretty well. Millions of uninsured people will be benefitting from that program.
“I prefer Congress (government by the people) making our laws.”
Really? The same Congress that has an all-time low approval rating? Wow you set the bar really low.
“How’s that Federal Reserve and hyper inflation and centralized banking system that steals your property at will thing working out for you?”
Hmmm, my property is fine, banking is good (I get free checking) and I understand that the economy is on the up.
“How’s the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam working out for you?”
Pretty good. We are no longer in Iraq and we are minimizing efforts in Afghanistan. I believe it was your candidate who sent us there and then declared “Mission Accomplished” Our guy got Bin laden and is finishing the job.
You also repeatedly call Lincoln a tyrant, although most polls list him as the #2 greatest president of all time second to only George W (no, not GW silly). So I think you’re in the vast minority which probably drives you nuts as you hate minorities.
Anything else?
Brooks, I love your writing, but do not know how you can tolerate these folks.
You have the patience of a saint!
Notice how nothing is ever the fault of Terry and his type? Notice how they omit everything that his side is responsible for? Terry and his side represent the far rightwing of the GOP. They are a minority within a minority and they hate the fact that the American people are rejecting them. Their rejection is so bad that they have to resort to disenfranchising voters in order to secure their political positions. He lives in an echo chamber where he is only hearing what he wants to hear.
Also, since they want to make so many connections to the Civil War to sustain their modern ideology, let us see how they are.
1. They flood the airwaves and Internet with tons of deliberately manufactured lies and misinformation built around the fear factor that racial minorities will displace whites. (while there was no radio or Internet in the Antebellum period, the principle remains the same.)
2. They work to deny voting rights to those who disagree with them in order to sustain their political power.
3. They advocate the use of violent resistance in order to get their way when the majority disapproves of their ideas.
4. They advocate secession as a constitutional reality when it has been proven to be unconstitutional. The fact that more people disapprove of the idea means nothing to them.
5. They advocate nullification of federal laws when nullification has been proven unconstitutional.
6. They reject the concept of compromise, instead choosing the “my way or else” strategy.
7. They try to frame their concepts in Biblical terms to give themselves an imaginary moral base.
8. They try to construct their arguments around the ideas and principles of the American Revolution while ignoring the parts that obviously conflict with their ideology.
9. They reject any facts that they disagree with.
10. They advocate an ideology which is based on exclusion regarding race, religion, sex, and gender.
Basically it’s the same type of people doing the same thing 150 years later.
So Jimmy, you saying the war ain’t over?
I happen to think George Bush was the worse president in history. Second only to Jimmy Carter and Abraham Lincoln. In fact, I would rank Bush even with Abraham Lincoln in destroying the Union and what’s left of our freedoms.
Thanks for mislabeling me as right wing. You have no idea what I stand for politically. But that’s what always happens when only one side of the equation is heard.
You talk the talk, you might as well walk the walk. The war has been over for a long time. Unfortunately, some people can’t figure it out and keep repeating the same stupidity over and over. The slave owners were wrong in 1860-61. The people that echo them today are wrong. They are following the same failed ideology today as the slave owners were back then.
I really don’t care what persuasion you are. What I do know is you are ignoring the facts in favor of a belief system that has been proven wrong.
Jimmy your “connections to the Civil War” #4 is very interesting. “4. They advocate secession as a constitutional reality when it has been proven to be unconstitutional. The fact that more people disapprove of the idea means nothing to them.”
People are talking secession all the time. Secession is a very popular idea at the moment. The neighborhood of Humarock, Massachusetts is talking about seceding from the town of Scituate, Massachusetts. What’s the uproar about? Economics is the main cause.
Here’s a list of 42 states (that’s a majority) where residents have filed secession petitions in recent days: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming.
Pretty much even across the board with northern states equaling southern states. And not one is talking about seceding from the Union because of slavery. So, why do you suppose those good folks in New Jersey and New York, for example, want to secede from the Union?
And it is still not going to happen so blathering on about secession being constitutional is about as useful as you leaping off a cliff into the Grand Canyon stark naked and trying to fly. The result will be a wet splat and utter failure. Just because some dissatisfied people hate the United States of America so bad that they want to force their ideas on others when the majority has clearly rejected them repeatedly and seek to try to move their state out of the United States shows me that those people do not want to be US citizens.
By all means, those people should just pack up and leave. Here in Missouri a group tries to secede and has no chance of success at all because their ideas are based on unconstitutional principles and those ideas are rejected by an overwhelming number of us.
We still come back to the same problem. Some people just don’t like being the minority and can’t handle being told that they’re wrong. You should be used to it by now, Terry. Secession is not going to happen.
I like what R. Crumb did, he hated living here so he seceded to the south…of France.
No the war isn’t over as long as bigoted ideology continues to distort the historical truth of it for politically correct agendas, which continue to dissolve the historians discipline. Slavery and racial factors were not the root cause of the war, but sub factors of a larger contention over power to expand and control the nation. The vilification of white Southerners and the Confederacy is another ethnic cleansing which will bear future pain and suffering for many. The pile of lies will come to a painful fruition and Brooks Simpson, Kevin Levin, Jimmy Dick, Andy Hall and whomever else agrees with you and your heirs, the nation will reap suffering from what you sow because of it. Historians are bound to question what meaning should be taken away from the past in order to prosper from the wisdom of its lessons. However historians with bias bigoted agendas teach nothing of value, imparting only ignorance upon society, making excellent war mongering propagandist for future conflicts over political self interest. So the Civil War will continue as it has, I just hope that it will remain “civil”, at least until the pups teeth have grown and the dogs you have been kicking are unleashed, then woe to those who have made it so… thus the war goes on.
Nice to hear from you, Michael.